Alright, i’m going to try and avoid too many spoilers here, but with the two most recent chapters of Suiren i’ve introduced some non-canonical characters and setting elements to the story; specifically, samurai. Some readers have raised various concerns about this, so i’m curious about what other people think:
- As readers of Naruto fanfiction, how hard is it for you to imagine that samurai/kenshi/other non-ninja martial artists could ever be as deadly as the ninja of the Naruto world, and why?
- For those of you who have already read ‘Blood’ and ‘Wolves,’ do you think the samurai come off as an overplayed, ‘Look, isn’t this cool?’ new story element? I haven’t explicitly stated the current disposition of the balance of power between Konoha and the Fire Country’s military nobility, and there might be some misconceptions, so i want to know what people think of matters as they stand now.
More spoilerish versions of the questions (highlight below to read):
- There are factors that haven’t been fully explained, but taken at face value, do you think Kurenai’s kagebunshin was ‘killed’ too easily by Lord Haruno’s bodyguard? The swordsman simply leaned across the table and performed a sword-drawing strike when Kurenai turned to address the lord, and there is a setting-specific reason why she didn’t sense his killing intent.
- Does Lord Haruno seem too ‘powerful?’ Archetype wise, the man is supposed be sort of a ‘Magnificent Bastard,’ and many of the things he says and does are intentionally over the top, but does he come off as too risky and disrespectful in his relations with Konoha, to the point that it seems like they would do something about him if they could?
I think samurai are a nice addition to the “all ninjas, all the time” style of the of the series. A little veriety adds flexibility to the story and makes it more interesting. As for samurai being able to match a ninja, if they couldn’t then the governments would take orders from the ninja in some countries and not the other way around. So there has to be some sort of parity. That being said, I’m looking forward to future chapters.
I agree with Taiho…there has to be something other than just ninja’s…plus i’d think that with sakura’s grandfather not liking ninja so much, he’d probably have a crazy training schedule for all his samurai (which are probably only the best of the best). He’d also make them all be aware of the strength of a ninja.
He knows that he can’t underestimate his enimies. Plus i think Kurenai dropped her guard a little when she heard that Hinata was there. Now she’ll be more weary of them. And i’d think that the lord made a really lucky guess regarding the kagebunshi.
But these are all my assumptions and you know the saying that goes with the word, (lol!) I just love it when you have to think about what your reading!
I really like the addition of samurai, and I don’t think there’s a problem with adding them to the setting! I would presume that ninjas perform an offensive military function, while the samurai act as a sort of defense force to keep the government in power. It’s an interesting way of setting out the balance of power.
That being said, I feel like Lord Haruno is too comfortable with thumbing his nose at Konoha for someone who’s supposed to be politically savvy. He has a village full of elite ninja less than a day’s travel away from his castle. His warriors may be competent, but pissing off his neighbors could still lead to some serious problems for him, particularly if they decided to team up with Sand or another ninja village that’s not happy about how many of its warriors have been killed by samurai. Sarutobi may have been tolerant and invested in keeping the peace, but Lord Haruno has no guarantee that the next Hokage won’t be a someone like Danzou. The leadership situation in Konoha is a big, volatile unknown right now. With the way Lord Haruno treated Kurenai, it’s like he’s trying to pick a fight.
Heh. Maybe he IS trying to pick a fight?
In any case, I really enjoy Suiren and I’m happy to see more of it!
I don’t really have a problem with the samurai being introduced as a sort of ninja foil. It adds a welcome layer of complexity to Country-to-Country relations, having to take into account not just the enemy nation’s ninja and samurai, which almost certainly have their own distinct agenda, but your own samurai as well. And having two powerful forces jockeying for position and prestige in the same country offers opportunities for some entertaining one-upmanship
And in retrospect, though Kurenai getting beheaded surprised me quite a lot, I’m not hating that either. She is the highest level of ninja, but one must assume that even high-level ninja are not infallible, and can be foiled, and you pointed out that there’s a setting-specific reason, so why not? After all, there’s plenty of anime sources that introduce samurai that could be the equal of the Naruto-type ninja in speed and power, albeit without the cool special effects/jutsu.
It is kind of grating, to be honest. Naruto is a world that’s “all Ninja, all the time.” It was built that way. The only way we have ever seen a non Ninja group pressure a Ninja group canonically is economically.
What makes the scene even more annoying is that the Samurai out Ninjaed the Ninja – that is to say, he in fact pulled the classic Ninja pawnage of ZOMB you dead before you know it.
Compounding my aggravation, is the fact that anyone that blatantly belligerent so close to Konoha should be dead. Respect should be quite important in such a quasi-feudal society, and the Leaf would be compelled to kill him. Really, after this chapter I’m wondering how he expects to escape without serious repercussions.
This is all ignoring that the manga has recently showed us the history of how the various Elemental nations formed. Which basically amounts to a bunch of clans getting together, conquer all the surrounding nations, then handing off that land to friendly (and in all likelihood, well cowed) lord so that he might manage the economy as daimio.
That this happed everywhere at about the same time with the only thing that changed being independent clans banding together means that no other force in the nations represented a meaningful opposition. Few things create as long or as strong a resistance as being conquered, but in Naruto we have yet to see any separatists – all the maps redrawn overnight and not a peep of resistance. That’s more then impressive, that’s a downright frightening accomplishment.
“Gold is for the mistress — silver for the maid –
Copper for the craftsman cunning at his trade.”
“Good!” said the Baron, sitting in his hall,
“But Iron — Cold Iron — is master of them all.”
‘Cold Iron’ by Rudyard Kipling
The fact that it’s possible for someone OTHER than a ninja village to ‘pressure’ a ninja village at all means there has to be one or more other sources of military power. Since we have canon references to feudal lords, and at least in one case a feudal lord being nominally in charge of a ninja Village (Sand vs the Wind Daymio) having traditional feudal troops being part of the balance of forces in the elemental countries makes perfect sense to me.
That said some thought needs to go into how the various ninja villages fit into the local politics AND how the Samurai use Chakra to make it possible for them to pose a credible threat while being somehow different from Ninja.
As for Kurenai’s kage bunshin being dispelled so easily while I haven’t read the rewritten scenethere are a few points I’d like to make:
1>Sakura was able to hide her killing intent from the Sound nins while chasing them. While we can assume Kurenai is much better at detecting such than the sound nins I’d expect an experienced Samurai, much less one acting as lord Harrano’s personal body guard to be much better at hiding his killing intent from people.
2>A blow which would not kill, or even incapacitate the real person would still be enough to dispel a shadow clone. That being the case it’s possible Kurenai did dodge most of the blow, and had it been the real her would have ended up with little more than a shallow cut (or possibly a large bruise if the samurai hit her with the flat of his blade).
3>Kurenai was forced by circimstances to put herself in an extremly vulneruble position(at least in the scene in the original version) and assuming that the samurai had as much combat ability as the average chunnin it was quite belivable that he could successfully hit Kurenai with a blow strong enough to dispell the clone. Since if he is not much stronger than the average chunnin at least in some respect Samurai aren’t a credible threat and the entire story of the seige and how Sakura’s grandparents got together is impossible I have no problem with him managing such a blow.
One additional note about how the Hidden villages fit into local politics – there is no reason why they should all fit the same way, and in fact it actually works bette if they don’t. It might be possible to come up with a belivable explanation that accounts for Leaf’s seeming independance (Or at least extreme autonomy), Sand’s subserviant role and the various tidbits of information we have on other villages but IMO it’s much better if the positions vary according to local politics and the personalities of the various leaders (possibly while remaining officially the same).
The Unicorn
I just had a thought it’s sort of like how there are different groups in the military…you know the navy, army and air force.
I was interested in looking up the different terms and lingo they used. And i don’t see any love lost between the groups, with their derogatory remarks they use in referring to the other groups.
So it seems reasonable also for them to not think they’re going to talk much of the other groups if they can help it. and i get naruto’s maker is making a ninja based world. But when we learned how the ninja’s lived before the making of the main ninja villages it was all very violent…it makes you wonder what type of government operated then…if at all…
I really do hope we’ll get to see some more flashbacks in the manga it’s interesting the author’s take of the past compared to fanfiction.
Just so you know, i am reading these comments! The various opinions and assertions made here are interesting, and i’m sorely tempted to respond to some of them, but since this is a ‘Reader Sound Off,’ i’m gonna hold my tongue for now ^_^;…
Compounding my aggravation, is the fact that anyone that blatantly belligerent so close to Konoha should be dead. Respect should be quite important in such a quasi-feudal society, and the Leaf would be compelled to kill him. Really, after this chapter I’m wondering how he expects to escape without serious repercussions.
I think Lask said what I was trying to say better than I did. While I don’t dislike the addition of samurai – this is an AU, and I like creativity in my AUs! – I feel like Lord Haruno lording his position over Konoha is way OTT. Shouldn’t they have the power to exert pressure on him as well? Either he needs to catch some backlash for his behavior, or he’s so much stronger than Konoha that he can act however the hell he wants. The latter situation very much rings false for me. A Konoha that weak isn’t the Konoha we know from canon.
It feels like either side would cheerfully eliminate the other, and I’m not sure why Konoha would put up with such a blatantly hostile militia so close to their gates. The samurai might match them one-on-one in a straight-up fight, but ultimately, assassination is what ninjas do.
So… um. I hate to sound so critical, since I absolutely love what you’ve done with Sakura, Anko, Hinata, and Kurenai in this fic. It’s wonderful to read about the overlooked ladies of Naruto as strong characters in their own right, and I’m really interested to see where you’re going with this!
Konoha started off by insulting Lord Harrano and asking him for a favor, not a good combination. While he might be in trouble down the line for retaliating it’s not like he had a choice.
Eimii also said that both the village and Lord Haruno are below the Daimyo (Sakura said somewhere in the story). So in this story i think even if both of them dislike each other they can’t do much because if they displease the guy up top their funding might get cut.
I’m sure not all their money is from doing missions which means the village probably has taxes. With the layout Eimii’s put in the country’s hierarchy i”m guessing the Daimyo is the one that gets the tax money and then distributes it to the lower forms of government in the land. And if i were the daimyo in this story i’d want a strong military to protect my country. So a little rivalry between the two different types of warriors would be welcome in the sense that they will continue to compete against each other, so that they can receive more percentage in tax money.
And I’m pretty sure the daimyo would favor Lord Haruno a bit more because of the more traditional fighting style. (And lets face it Lord Haruno sounds and acts like a hard core samurai war-lord) But times are changing and advancing so the daimyo would be stupid not to also adapt and change with the times, ergo the rise in ninja status. I’m also pretty sure Eimii also wrote in the story that Lord Haruno was the last war-lord in the country. If he is I’m guessing there’s a reason that, he probably has a lot of influence in the government. Maybe he can walk the talk…(is that the right way of saying that…or is it walk the walk….meh you know what i mean…).
Fire country both in canon and in this story appears to be a feudal society. In feudal societies it is quite common for there to be provision for minor lords to go to war with each other.
As far as taxes in a feudal system each lord collecting what taxes he(or she) chooses to and giving their boss the sum he(or she) was demanding as his due was regrettably common. A somewhat more orgenized system is to have the Daimyo get a percentage of the taxes collected with the the people under the minor lords entitled to appeal to the daimyo.
The Unicorn
Ya your probably right…:D i don’t know enough of how feudal societies work but if it’s anything like in medieval times in Euope with Lords taking taxes from the people on his land and giving a percentage to the king. I’m sure he’d give some tax breaks to the more profitable Lords…
but i haven’t thought that deeply about that kind of stuff since elementary school…lol
First off so very nice to see more of this story. It has probably been said before but this version of Sakura is far, far more interesting to read about! As for the Samurai thing it may not be entirely “canon”, but imho it adds flavor in this story. It adds more depth to issues of power and influence and more importantly gives interesting depth to the current going ons.
Lord Haruno may seem somewhat more belligerent than is wise, but there may be more going on for why he is so secure then we have been shown, also!
As for the kagebunshin, I don’t think it too unreasonable it was taken out if the samurai had no killing intent. I imagine someone like Seta Sojiro from Kenshin, amazing with a sword, possessing godlike speed and having absolutely no killing intent at all would be a huge pain for a even a jounin.
Overall I do not think you went too far with the samurai thing, I trust we will be shown why the lord is so unconcerned with Konoha at present and more of what is going on behind the scenes. Cannot wait for more!
To Lask:
I agree, the lord did go a bit overboard but i guess he sort of wanted to thumb his nose at Konoha. Like stated in the story a few chapters ago, he knows right now the two ninja villages need a peace treaty and are willing to do anything to get it…i think he’s also getting back at them for using sakura and trying to make idiotic excuses for using her.
Plus the hokage can’t be every where in the fire country so there has to be some other sort of leadership in the land. Also if you think about it the Leaf Village isn’t that old it’s only had 5 leaders, and tsunade is the granddaugter of the second (i think…correct me if i’m wrong) so that’s only what…around 150 years (i’m guessing here) there had to been some other sort leadership before the village.
Also you must realize that this story started well over 2 years ago so of course the present real story-line of Naruto won’t work with this story.
But that’s your opinion i get what your saying realistically speaking the lord would have been taken out if curtain incidences would permit it. But seeing as how konaha is licking it’s wounds still, there probably won’t be any retaliation…yet?…hmm
i love blogs!
Konoha is slightly over 90 year old, making it the oldest hidden village. Slightly after its formation it conquered all the sourounding nations, creating the Land of Fire. At this point, the Fire is (semi-)idependent, but there are probably people still alive who remember when there wasn’t a Land of Fire.
@Lask: Sorry to butt in here, but you seem to be operating under a huge mistaken assumption about Naruto canon. In the manga, chapter 399, it is clearly stated that when the Senju and Uchiha declared a truce and started Konoha, they formed a pact with the Fire Country, as the Fire Country wanted some help with controlling their territory. Konoha never conquered the Fire Country, not even in canon- and certainly not in this story. The Fire Country has always governed itself, and before the establishment of the Hidden Village system they would hire and dismiss ninja clans as it served their purposes…
@Lask: Sorry, but I’ve got to agree with Eimii here — if nothing else because I know I’d have remembered if that was what had been said, while Eimii seems quite correct… More importantly, though, is the fact that the canon contradicts in known political structure what you’ve said; making a puppet daimyo is possibly the most disrespectful thing possible — unless everybody agrees it’s a good idea, which would take there being only one, highly-incompetent candidate for the job, it’d be a rather simple matter to just poison the village’s water sources, even if it is a hidden village…
Meanwhile, re: Lord Haruno and his relationship with Konoha — even in a feudal society, in fact, it is possible for them to permit that sort of disrespect, under certain conditions…
From what Eimii has established so far, my bet is that Lord Haruno is the one whose job is to represent Konoha politically within Fire Country’s courts. Thus, from a political point of view, it’s a patron-client relationship…with Konoha as the client. If Lord Haruno (whomever he might currently be) decides to, he may be in the perfect position to ruin Konoha.
If the relationship sticks to no serious incidents — nothing that compromises state security, that is — then Konoha may quite reasonably opt to accept such behavior as simply a reasonable, and perhaps even desirable price to their relationship… After all, these are minor incidents, and if they’re the price of his political patronage — and if this is, as it seems, essential to Konoha’s relationship with the daimyo…
Two to one, really, all we’ve seen so far is just skimming the depths of ninja/samurai/noble politics.
wow good points
It certainly sounds like Lord Haruno is the Fire Country’s equivalent to a medieval warlord. I wonder what his level of influence and position in the eyes of the daimyo is, compared to, say, a kage.
Consider where practically all the canon information on the Naruto world comes from, in-story – ninjas. What little doesn’t come directly from their lips is mostly eithre from civilians in the hidden villages or said to known ninjas.
Therefore, all of it will have a ninja slant. We’ve no reason to take it as the unvarnished truth (apart from the meta reason of the nature of the storytelling). It becomes quite possible that the Samurai have a rather different perspective on the world, which is not completely wrong. Lord Haruno could have well have effective leverage of the Hokage known, among ninjas, only to the Hokage’s inner circle
I like the edition of the samurai to the story, especially if they are used mainly as a defensive force for the country and a means to control the civilian populations if a country does decide to invade another. Ninja could be used to break enemy formations, taking out the enemy’s leaders, etc., while the samurai led troops would go in, mop up the remaining forces, and actually hold the ground.
As for Lord Haruno, he may be acting over the top and extra aggressive against Kurenai, but there is probably political considerations that we haven’t seen yet, that allow him to get away with it, without him inviting a serious retalation from Konoha. Plus, he was probably getting a little payback for Sakura.
Historically speaking the ninja actually evolved from samurai (back back back in the day ninja were just samurai with a mask on, before they started doing the cloaked in darkness bit =p) so I see it as pefectuly plausible that they’re equal in power. Just like Sharingan came from Byakugan right? So samurai could probably focus chakra into their swords and cut through lots of neat things! =D Or maybe they could enhance their feet to run faster/longer, enhance their senses, etc. . . . I wonder if they could/would use jutsu? Walking on water is plently helpful. =\
I actually like the whole samurai thing coming into play. =) It’d be interesting to see the diffences between the two and they’re interactions. =P The burning hostility would be kinda fun to play with and it’d be interesting to see how Sakura would interact with them, seeing as she hung around her granpappy often enough to know proper etiquette.
Kurenai’s clone getting offed pretty easily is also plausible. Samurai train for speed and power just as much (if not more) than ninja and since they probably don’t do the jutsu thing they wouldn’t need to devote as much time and energy to it.
I think it was perfectly fine letting Lord haruno get away with fingering Konoha, assuming he is a prominent figurehead in the daimyo’s circles. Afterall a hidden village still needs funding from the daimyo ESPECIALLY during peaceful times. Without it they wouldn’t be as prosperous, just take a look at Suna, they’re budget was cut so bad they tried a hostile takeover of Konoha. Simply killing off all who bad mouthed ninja wouldn’t solve anything either ’cause wouldn’t it be oh-so subtle that every ninja hater suddenly died. =/ We’re talking about a really wealthy country that HAS to have a pretty offensive power backing up the daimyo, there may even be an elite ninja squad trained for and loyal ONLY to the Fire Lord. @_@ Lots of factors . . .
@Amethyst: Just gonna butt in here with another canon note. Canonically, there is an elite ninja bodyguard squad that is loyal only to the Fire Country Daimyo; Sarutobi Asuma served on it during his more rebellious years…
@Eimii: Oh yay. ^_^ Sadly I haven’t been really keeping up with the latest Naruto chaps. =P Thanks for that!
Lask and Larkspur both summed up my feelings on the samurai pretty well.
I like the creativity of adding the samurai (and perhaps other non-shinobi fighters) in to this AU, and I really like them being equal to the ninja. Personally I would think that the samurai would be better at direct combat and large scale warfare then the ninja, who are more guerrilla and covert ops combatants. Who knows perhaps they have their own techniques like the shinobi justus?
Overall different focuses and styles of combat but in the end equally deadly.
However Lord Haruno’s attitude towards the Leaf Ninja just doesn’t quite seem all that realistic to me. With the level of antagonism he displays towards them I just can’t see the Village Hidden in the Leaves leaving him in power or other repercussions not happening.
They are ninja and assassination, blackmail, stuff like that are all tools of their trade.
But more then that he should be facing some major political backlash from at least Kohona for the way he behaves towards the Leaf Shinobi.
And I just really cannot see the Damiyo of the Fire Country standing for the two parts of his country’s military, the ninja and shinobi, to be at each other’s throats like that. With the information we get about how Lord Haruno acts in chapters 12 and 13 I can’t see why the Daimyo wouldn’t tell him enough is enough, fix your attitude or be dismissed in disgrace from your post.
Honestly I would have him and his men dislike and hate shinobi, ban them from the keep etc. But they would have to be at least semi-respectful towards the Leaf, who they have to work with, or suffer a lot of political backlash. It would be different if the shinobi were from a village in another country, but they are from the Village Hidden in the Leaves in the Fire Nation.
And vice-versa with the Shinobi. They may not like each other or trust each other, but they have to work together. From my reading of the story it just seems that an enemy would have taken advantage of the level of conflict between the Fire Country’s samurai and shinobi a long time ago.
Sorry for all of the rambling but basically while I like the antagonism between Lord Haruno/the samurai and the Leaf Shinobi, it just seems to much to really be believable.
As for Kurenai I have no real problems with her being taken down by the Samurai bodyguard. However it just seemed like it was done too easily. As another commenter said it seemed like the Samurai out ninjaed the ninja
In my own opinion it would have been if she had seen the attack coming and at least tried to defend herself, or had simply let the clone go before the strike could be/or as it was being completed.
If there are setting specific reasons related to his I really think you should have Kurenai mention/think about them, or at least foreshadow them somewhat in the plot. Just show them if you can without spoiling or otherwise messing up the plot.
Basically I have no problem with Kurenai getting taken down by the Samurai, but it is somewhat grating because it just seems like it was done too easily.
Finally I do not think that the Samurai come off as an overplayed, ‘Look, isn’t this cool? story element though some aspects could perhaps be toned down a little.
Personally I think you kinda need to sit down and compare the samurai and ninja along with the politics. IE What can the Samurai get by with and vice versa what can the Ninja get by with.
Because after the ‘Blood’ and the ‘Wolves’ chapter I just can’t see Lord Haruno getting by without serious repercussions from the Leaf Village and/or the Daimyo. His attitude is just too antagonistic towards the Shinobi.
Just my thoughts on the matter, sorry for my rambling. But overall I have to say that Suiren is one of the better Naruto fanfictions that I have read in a long time.
Sincerely,
Oseng
I hope it doesn’t sound like i’m singling anyone out here, but i do feel somewhat compelled to respond to the comments implying that i should rethink the factional relationships in Suiren. I already have dissertations worth of planning behind the factional relationships in this story, so there actually are reasons why characters and groups act the way they do… most of the time; these are supposed to be human beings, after all…
I let a bit of it slip on the FFML recently, if anyone really wants to know some of what’s going on behind the scenes, but that’s all i’m gonna say on it. As Kakashi pointed out, sometimes you have to ‘look beneath the beneath’ to figure out what’s really going on ^_^;…
I personally enjoyed the addition of samurai and would note that Gatou hired a bunch of weak outlaw swordsman types waay early in the series. Sure they all went down easy BUT so did the Demon Brothers (to a Genin who hadn’t even activated his blood limit) and they were Ninjas, so you have to think that most hired mercenaries without backing are low level.
I suspect (and this could easily be wrong) that the Samurai might possess a much lower variety of chakra manipulation abilities. Ninja are all about tricks and stealth, they need to be able to walk on walls and try for every edge they can (watch the number of bunshins and kawirimi in every high level ninja fight), whereas a more straightforward path to power would be to just train physically a lot (and Rock Lee proves it mostly works, though he’s probably stronger than the average samurai, being a ‘genius of hard work’).
As for the antagonistic nature of Sakura’s granddad… mostly he just comes off as grumpy. I mean the only people we’ve seen him interact with much are Sakura (who is family so he may feel freer) and Kurenai (who seduced one of his sons). We haven’t seen him act in any official setting, so I didn’t think he was definitely overly hostile to Konoha, though I get the impression he probably pushes things when he can.